8500 GT Nvidia Video jitter

[boborg]

It's not a question of EVR or not. Using 165.01 on XP and latest Vista driver with EVR should be around the same. But if you use Vista, EVR is afaik currently the only option for hardware accelleration with Geforce 8500/8600. Obviously the best thing is hardware accelleration regardless of EVR/VMR or overlay. But even on a total clean install windows XP the 165.01 have never been stable for me on my 8500GT.

Edited July 1, 2007 by boborg

[ricabullah]

It's not a question of EVR or not. Using 165.01 on XP and latest Vista driver with EVR should be around the same.

 

I agree but for Vista you need to use GE with its bugs.(atleast for now) For XP you can use Pro. (In both cases HA result is the same.)

And this makes the difference.

[ricabullah]

But even on a total clean install windows XP the 165.01 have never been stable for me on my 8500GT.

 

 

Hi boborg!

 

You can try 162.15; i haven't tried it but nowadays some people seem to be happy with this FW.

Edited July 1, 2007 by ricabullah

[arfster]

Certainly, if you can get XP acceleration working that's the best solution. EVR by itself offers little other than being less prone to tearing, and with the 8500/8600 that problem has disappeared for me (used to have it constantly with several 6xxx and 7xxx cards).

 

Unfortunately, it looks rather like Vista will never have PV2 h264 acceleration in VMR9, so we either have to use DVBViewer GE, or Pro with software mode, no acceleration and no proper deinterlacing.

[ricabullah]

I made some trials with Vista today.

First i checked whether EVR is working with graphedit. It was working:

File Source(async)+Cyberlink demux+Cyberlink H264 decoder+EVR

Here is the graph:

 

 

It is clear that "average framerate achieved" is "50"

 

So i thought i might figure out "unwanted top band " bug of GE via making a custom graph and using it with GraphSelector plug.

 

What was interesting i saw no picture (just black screen) while graph was working correctly on the back plan.

Connect to remote graph and :

 

 

????[Without graph selector plug-in (or "no graph" selected), you can watch even the same graph used.]

 

(by the way i registered new beta Dvbvewer filter 2.8.5.2 test on Vista and used GE 2.3.0 beta)

 

EDIT: explained more detailled here:

here

Edited July 3, 2007 by ricabullah

[boborg]

Hi boborg!

 

You can try 162.15; i haven't tried it but nowadays some people seem to be happy with this FW.

 

Yes I'm infact running 162.15 on XP right now. Best driver so far. Of course no hardware H.264 yet. I've just ordered a ATi 2400 Pro so I'll sell my 8500 GT I think.

[Griga]

I

agree but for Vista you need to use GE with its bugs

Which bugs? That's a very superficial way of regarding the issue.

 

Well, I'll draw the attention from here back to this thread, because I've found something interesting:

 

https://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost....86&SiteID=1

 

What actually causes the left over parts of previous pictures seems to be this:

 

Some resizing of the video destination rectangle occurs (e.g. due to an aspect ratio / zoom adjustment, doesn't matter). The resizing causes a repaint of the video area (WM_PAINT message), comprising to things

 

- Erasing the video area (painting it black), in order to make sure that no parts of the previous (possibly larger) picture remain visible.

 

- Forwarding the message to the video renderer, that should let it output the current picture to the (resized) destination rectangle again. See here:

 

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/library/aa965221.aspx

 

This works with all video renderers, except the EVR. Why? Because it doesn't do what MSDN promises. What actually happens is this:

 

the behavior is likely to be "by design" due to how the EVR queues up frames to be presented to the Desktop Window Manager. The call to IMFVideoDisplayControl->SetVideoPosition() will only be effective for frames that have not yet been queued up.

 

1) A new destination rectangle is set

 

2) The video area gets erased

 

3) The EVR outputs a picture from its queue (if there is any) - still to the old destination rectangle!

 

4) The EVR outputs the next picture to the new (smaller) destination rectangle

 

There you are... the usual Windows repaint mechanisms (inherited by every application) are not in sync with the EVR, since the resizing effect is delayed in an unpredictable way. Bug by design, I'd say

 

It will be hard to find a work-around for this issue. However, I will think about it...

[ricabullah]

Which bugs? That's a very superficial way of regarding the issue.

 

Sorry!

 

It really seems very superficial, i admit. I must have said just "one bug" or something else which is not originated by the program.

 

As an ordinary user i believe in my eyes; so sorry.

 

What we see on the EVR window is very clear (on capture that i sent),

i think (hope)we gonna agree?

Edited July 3, 2007 by ricabullah

[arfster]

It will be hard to find a work-around for this issue. However, I will think about it...

 

Wouldn't it just be easier to implement EVR in DVBViewer pro? :-) That's the only reason we're using GE at all - us Vista users are basically stuck without any h264 deinterlacing, since no h264 DXVA1 decoder can actually work in Vista/VMR9 (and mpeg2 dxva1 decoders are pretty buggy too).

[Griga]

Wouldn't it just be easier to implement EVR in DVBViewer pro?

 

No

 

http://www.DVBViewer.info/forum/index.php?...st&p=136548

[ricabullah]

We have just run some tests, and unfortunately it seems to be very difficult to send the OSD through a second input pin to the EVR, as it is required for the DVBViewer Pro OSD.

 

But you don't need a second input pin; this is why we are provoking you to fix some issues as just the last chance of us. (in the name of Vista users)

 

Best!

Edited July 4, 2007 by ricabullah

[Griga]

I'm not directly involved in the development of DVBViewer Pro, but I wouldn't spoil the well balanced concept of an application just to work around the shortcomings of Vista, EVR, H.264 video decoders and "up-to-date" graphics cards with their buggy drivers.

 

To be true: I don't watch HDTV , my PC is too slow anyway (no dual core), I don't use Vista, my graphics card is an old GeForce MX 440 with a driver that has been released 2004, happily feeding a CRT monitor, and I won't spend money for all that half-baked high-end low-quality stuff that seems to be mainly designed for pulling more money out of our pockets. As a developer I deal with it in a reserved way. Sometimes it's an interesting challenge (like a puzzle), but as a consumer I don't need it, so I don't have to bother if it doesn't work as desired.

 

If you set your heart on HDTV and decide to spend a lot of money for rushing as an early adaptor to the high-tech frontier... well, that's your choice, and you're getting the according results. Don't expect that some magical programming power will make it easier for you. As far as it concerns me, I'll consider buying some of that stuff in let's say two or three years, when things have settled down a bit, particularly the prices , and work more reliably.

[Moses]

Spend a little more money and buy windows XP... it's possible to get HDTV running smothly there.

[arfster]

I'm not directly involved in the development of DVBViewer Pro, but I wouldn't spoil the well balanced concept of an application just to work around the shortcomings of Vista, EVR, H.264 video decoders and "up-to-date" graphics cards with their buggy drivers.

 

Yeah, that's fair enough from the developer point of view.

 

However this isn't an early-innovator problem with specific cards and drivers, it's all h264 under Vista, with all video cards, and all drivers. The hope was that new drivers would allow the same custom APIs that the Cyberlink decoder uses for XP PV2 to work in Vista with VMR9, but it seems the driver or OS don't allow that. Thus, the DXVA2/EVR combo is needed for hardware acceleration and deinterlacing.

 

On top of that, the only fully working MPEG2 hardware accelerated decoder in Vista, again the Cyberlink one, now no longer works with VMR9. Nvidia's ancient dxva1 purevideo decoder partially works, but screws up film/video detection in PAL, resulting in juddervision with a lot of channels. Again this affects all cards and all drivers in Vista.

 

Basically, DXVA1 decoders really don't work properly in Vista (and thus neither does VMR9). However, DXVA2 ones need EVR for acceleration, and more importantly for quality hardware deinterlacing. None of this is DVBViewer's fault, but the Vista userbase is only going to increase from now on.

Edited July 4, 2007 by arfster

[Moses]

However this isn't an early-innovator problem with specific cards and drivers, it's all h264 under Vista, with all video cards, and all drivers.

 

That's exactly what it is, an early adopter problem with Vista. If you don't like that kind of problems, stay with XP and let Vista finish it's (inofficial) beta tests.

 

For MPEG2 Hardware decoding just revert to some earlier version of the cyberlink decoder. As you said, h.264 hardware acceleration doesn't work in vista anyway, so there is no need right now for the newest version.

Maybe you should wait and hope for the Direct 3D Renderer, that is produced here. It could solve some of your problems. But it definitively has a higher priority for the developers than EVR.

[ricabullah]

Spend a little more money and buy windows XP... it's possible to get HDTV running smothly there.

 

I already have XP.

 

see post 1284

Edited July 4, 2007 by ricabullah

[arfster]

That's exactly what it is, an early adopter problem with Vista.

 

It's not - h264 acceleration works perfectly as its intended to, which is with EVR. That's why WMP, PowerDVD, WinDvd, and Nero are all using EVR in Vista, and Theatertek/Zoomplayer/MPC have added it. There's no sign that Microsoft and Cyberlink intend to bodge things so h264 accleration works with VMR9 in Vista, and no benefit for either of them to do so. Vista is simply a native DXVA2 environment, and no dxva1 decoder works properly: nvidia, cyberlink, sonic, mainconcept; whether mpeg2 or h264 none of them work fully, and some don't work at all.

 

For MPEG2 Hardware decoding just revert to some earlier version of the cyberlink decoder. As you said, h.264 hardware acceleration doesn't work in vista anyway, so there is no need right now for the newest version.

 

Unfortunately those earlier versions don't play many modern HDDVD or Bluray discs, because they changed AACS, and the old versions didn't work with a lot of discs to start with (eg potc). You can't even extract the mpeg2 versions from earlier versions and use them alongside the rest of the latest PDVD, because it crashes if you try (dunno if it depends on some other element of the PDVD package, or if it's an integrity test).

[ricabullah]

this is why we are provoking you to fix some issues as just the last chance of us. (in the name of Vista users)

 

I don't use Vista

 

Sorry, wrong address!

Edited July 4, 2007 by ricabullah

[Griga]

What was common, there was a horizontal band on top of the display which is left from the previous scenes.

DVBViewer GE 2.3.1 Beta is available in the members area, beta section, with an attempt to erase the left over parts of previous pictures by painting the unused area of the video window black (with a certain delay, in order to work around the strange buffering of the EVR). I don't know whether it will fix the issue described here. Try...

[arfster]

DVBViewer GE 2.3.1 Beta is available in the members area, beta section, with an attempt to erase the left over parts of previous pictures by painting the unused area of the video window black (with a certain delay, in order to work around the strange buffering of the EVR). I don't know whether it will fix the issue described here. Try...

 

That fixed it, thanks.

[vonMengen]

I feel quite comfortable now , got a 50 EURO AMDTI card that works with most trailers in H.264 and VC 1 DXVA now , mainly to impress my girlfriend...

I will send it to Griga end of the year as a christmas present , if he really will upgrade his PCI mobo (ISA slot ?) to a PCI e slot mobo and his CPU

from a 500 MHz P3 to a lightningfast P3 /1 GHZ.

 

 

I did not install Vista , i don`t like copies , the original works on my Mac . So i have lots of time to wait for the solutions the leftover settlers with their arrows in the backs offer. I dont like PayTV channels with their incredible garbage (my channellist shows exactly 28 TVstations) so probably in 2009 when ARD/ ZDF and their very good digital channels will start HD , I will enter the boat .

it would be tomorrow , if I had any chance to receive BBCHD for sure , but here @ the lake of Constance in the very south of Germany it seems very difficult.

 

@arfster ..funny thread on avs ( Owen vs. Mine :-) ......

 

 

best

vm (a.k.a mine)

 

Have a nice day !!

 

vm

Edited July 7, 2007 by vonMengen

[Griga]

got a 50 EURO AMDTI card that works with most trailers in H.264 and VC 1 DXVA now , mainly to impress my girlfriend and which I will send to Griga end of the year as a christmas present

Nice idea! I never got a girlfriend as christmas present before Or are there certain reasons for not wanting her anymore?

[vonMengen]

Nice idea! I never got a girlfriend as christmas present before Or are there certain reasons for not wanting her anymore?

 

Hi griga

 

I change them as fast as my lowcost graphiccards so be warned about performance and quality.

Edited July 6, 2007 by vonMengen

[ricabullah]

DVBViewer GE 2.3.1 Beta is available in the members area, beta section, with an attempt to erase the left over parts of previous pictures by painting the unused area of the video window black (with a certain delay, in order to work around the strange buffering of the EVR). I don't know whether it will fix the issue described here. Try...

 

It works, thanks.

I hope we will get rid of black screen aswell when you update to Vista

Edited July 6, 2007 by ricabullah

[ricabullah]

It works, thanks.

I hope we will get rid of black screen aswell when you update to Vista

 

Hi griga!

 

There is still very little flashing line left(one or two mm) which is not painted. Sure you will fix it aswell.

 

Best!

[Griga]

Do you use the crop function (Settings -> Zoom) in GE?

[ricabullah]

Do you use the crop function (Settings -> Zoom) in GE?

 

No. Why?

[ricabullah]

(deleted by myself because of repetition by mistake.)

Edited August 12, 2007 by ricabullah

[ricabullah]

Hi!

 

I sent signal to 32" LG. Settings 1280*720p 50Hrz via DVI to HDMI cable.

 

Xp as usual 165.01FW

Vista 158.44 FW

 

Let me say PQ that i got with XP much better with classical video renderer comparing the one that i got with Vista.(as far as i see)

 

I didn't get awared while i was watching with PC monitor.

 

(by the way griga; when i sent ts to LCDTV, i didn't see any flashing line left)

Edited July 7, 2007 by ricabullah

[ricabullah]

Hi!

 

New unofficial beta FW 163.16 has been released.( August 2nd.)

 

I tried with both XP and Vista drivers and gave the results at dvbnetwork.eu forum.

 

No jitter, no jutter, no dropping frames anymore.

 

Check it out with problematic CNBC-E.

 

best!

[ricabullah]

Here it is:

 

 

[CiNcH]

First one (CNBC) is without DXVA/hardware acceleration. Though jitter problem is related to DXVA?

[ricabullah]

No, i don't think so; i guess it's related with FW.

Since i'm on Vista now, i gave those captures.

But if you give me 15 minutes, i gonna add XP captures of the same channels.

[CiNcH]

Can probably be fixed with a ForceWare update yes. But I think it is still a DXVA problem. People said that post processing always seemed to switch between video and film mode, so sometimes it deinterlaces, sometimes it does not. If you use soft mode, the filter (Elecard in your case) is responsible for post processing, so neither ForceWare drivers nor the video post processor with GeForce cards would influence that.

Edited August 10, 2007 by CiNcH

[ricabullah]

"People said that post processing always seemed to switch between video and film mode, so sometimes it deinterlaces, sometimes it does not"

 

Who says this?

Maybe they used NVidia in place of Cyberlink by mistake?

VMR7 works without any problem at hardware mode together with Cyberlink.

I'll show you how it's working.

Just wait a little bit?

Edited August 13, 2007 by ricabullah

[CiNcH]

Well, actually I do not mind. I am not going to re-read the 8 pages . I have never had this problem...

[ricabullah]

Neither have i; even with 165.01, problematic one -for some; but let me say 163.16 seems more stable.

Edited August 10, 2007 by ricabullah

[ricabullah]

Here i am on XP:

 

[ricabullah]

If you still live lock problem even after installing a fresh XP with the new FW, try to install the latest DX package from MS:

 

latest DX 10

 

I got feedback a few minutes ago:

 

here

Edited August 10, 2007 by ricabullah

[boborg]

DirectX 10 on XP? AFAIK DX10 is and will not be released for XP?