PiP Playback from recorded transponder

[Cian]

I will be recording Formula 1 races on Astra 28.8. The transponder carries two race streams - one of normal race coverage and one of onboard cameras.

 

I am pretty sure that I cannot do PiP from the transponder recording, but is there any other software that will allow me to do this? Are there any plans to include the usual transponder options (pip, multiple audio tracks, channel selection) with transponder playback in future versions? Just a suggestion

[Griga]

TSPlayer (download from members area -> tools) allows to switch between different channels recorded in a single TS file. However, it doesn't support PiP, and the playback position is handled separately for each channel, which means, if you switch from A to B and back to A, playback of A will continue at the position where you have switched to B (could be changed, if necessary).

 

Formula 1 races on Astra 28.8

FTA? Which channels on which frequency?

[dvbrewer]

FTA? Which channels on which frequency?

12441V on 28.2, which has the main BBC red button screens.

[Cian]

TSPlayer was what I used last year, PiP is the aim for this year!!

[Griga]

What are red button screens? Don't assume that people who are not living in the UK know what you are talking about. You will have to explain it in detail.

[Lars_MQ]

It's a mheg-5 thingy. More or less some kind of teletext on steroids with some added interactivity. Used in UK, HK and new zealand I think. And each uses a sligthly different approach.

We got the parser and display stuff quite complete and working for some time but because of licencing problems with the display part we most likely won't publish it...

[Cian]

The Red Button service is a UK satellite service. It allows you to select broadcast streams that are not on the regular channels or as a supplement to them. The "interactive" selection is an MHEG5 operation, but it is only accessable using a Sky or Freesat box.

 

However, the video/audio content of the streams is broadcast Free-to-Air on a series of 7 channels labelled Stream-0 to Stream-6. There is no EPG for these streams, but DVBViewer sees them as normal channels. As said above, these can be tuned into DVBViewer at 12441V on 28.8E.

 

In my particular case, when an Formula 1 race is being broadcast, the Streams carry:

 

1. World feed of the race with multiple commentary tracks.

2. On-board camera feed with on-board audio.

 

When I watch the race live, I have stream 1 on full screen, and stream 2 on PiP.

 

When I miss the race, I record the whole transponder since you can never know which option will appear on which stream. My intention is to watch the race in the same way as live: One stream full screen, and one on the PiP.

 

Hope this explains it more clearly,

 

Thanks,

 

Cian.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Cian

[Derrick]

You can't start pip from 2 different recordings

[Cian]

What I am looking for is PiP from the same recording of the complete transponder. I know that DVBViewer cannot do it currently. I'm just wondering if there is something else there that does?

[PeterF]

you can record the complete transponder by using "Transedit", in the analyse-modus, you can select the streams and then record

 

PeterF

[Lars_MQ]

Recording is not the problem. It's the displaying of more than one recorded channel which does not work.

[Tjod]

recording of the complete transponder. I know that DVBViewer cannot do it currently.

http://www.DVBViewer.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=33078

[Derrick]

ZITAT(Cian @ Mar 1 2010, 21:52)

recording of the complete transponder. I know that DVBViewer cannot do it currently.

 

*LOL* You've missed the essential part

 

What I am looking for is PiP from the same recording of the complete transponder.

[Griga]

@Lars: Is there still a possibility to simulate a DVB device with input from a file in DVBViewer Pro ("file device")? That would be the easiest solution.

[Tjod]

You can add a file device via options > hardware > +

[Lars_MQ]

Yes it works, I use it all the time with test-dumps. BUT this is like a real device. You have to do a channelscan on it.

[Cian]

If this works, it is the perfect soloution

 

I have added the file as a device and listed the type as Satellite. I have disabled all the other satellite inputs and then carried out a scan, but no channels have been found. Is there a better file type to choose?

[Tjod]

You have to select the .ts file via settings button from the file device (options > hardware)

[Cian]

You have to select the .ts file via settings button from the file device (options > hardware)

 

 

Did that. Still no channels found. (But I'm getting excited by the possibilities!)

Edited March 2, 2010 by Cian

[Cian]

OK. So I forgot to fill in a frequency, and now that I have, it has found the channels. And it works

 

Thanks - This is brilliant

[dvbrewer]

It's a mheg-5 thingy. More or less some kind of teletext on steroids with some added interactivity. Used in UK, HK and new zealand I think. And each uses a sligthly different approach.

We got the parser and display stuff quite complete and working for some time but because of licencing problems with the display part we most likely won't publish it...

Microsoft are implementing it in WMC- I take it they must have paid BBC a license fee to do that?

Edited March 2, 2010 by dvbrewer

[Lars_MQ]

I don't think you have to pay a fee. Our problem lies somewhere else.

[Cian]

OK, so I found a slight problem ...

 

At the moment it seems that it is not possible to fast-forward through the file. Obviously, this is because it treats it as a real-time stream. This means that the program will have to be watched in one sitting

 

I know it is probably not worth implementing in a future release because of its limited use, but if it was just a small amount of coding, you might think of including it as a feature.

 

Thanks,

 

Cian.

[Derrick]

..treating a ts file like a live stream can only be a workaround. Even if implemented, rewind or fast forward would only work for a single service but with pip you'll need the same algo twice and it has to be snchronised.

 

With the setting structure of the dvbv there's another problem with this workaround. You can't distinguish between the live program and the recording cos you'll have the same services twice in your list

[dvbrewer]

I don't think you have to pay a fee. Our problem lies somewhere else.

So what is the problem with implementing BBC interactive content?

[Derrick]

You're in the wrong thread. The topic is PiP Playback from recorded transponder

[Griga]

I'm considering to wed the DVBViewer GE PiP module with the TSPlayer. Dunno if this kind of relationship will work, but maybe it's worth a try...

[Cian]

I'm considering to wed the DVBViewer GE PiP module with the TSPlayer. Dunno if this kind of relationship will work, but maybe it's worth a try...

 

Whatever works! I would be happy to help in any way I can - although that is probably only in a beta-test kind of way

[Griga]

Well, that already looks like something...

 

 

The DVBViewer GE PiP module (now attached to TSPlayer) is quite flexible. The PiP window can be moved to any desktop position, resized, switched to full screen, etc. Seeking works, even cue play, pause and all that stuff... the most difficult part was to sync the two video windows. At first the PiP window tended to be one second ahead, but I managed to reduce it to 100 ms or so. It has reached the state of being a proof of concept, I'd say. However, there are still some things on the to-do list. Switching audio between the windows and such. When it's done, testers will be needed...

[Cian]

 

Griga, I owe you a beer.

[Griga]

Griga, I owe you a beer.

Rather a barrel... well, it's not only for you. This kind of technology will probably be required in future, e.g. for M2TS files (BluRay stuff) with multiple video tracks. So it's worth investigating on it.

 

Ok, here we go... I couldn't do everything that I wanted to do, because my job is keeping me quite busy, but it can be called a beta release now. TSPlayer 2.2.1.8 is available in the members area, beta section. The ZIP contains TSPlayer.exe and PreviewP.exe, which is the PiP module. Both must be stored in the same folder (best in the DVBViewer installation folder, where DVBViewer.exe is). PreviewP.exe can't run independently, though it is an EXE file. It is launched by TSPlayer when needed. This kind of outsourcing is due to the fact that at least on my PC two video playing filter graphs don't run properly within one process.

 

Strongly recommended: Update the DVBViewer Filter (DVBSource, file PushSource.ax) in DVBViewer\Filters to version 3.5.2 (see members area. plugin section).

 

The manual tells you more about TSPlayer... however, changes and new features of the beta are not documented yet. You will have to find your way through. Here are the most important points:

 

TS file playback with Picture in Picture:

 

Launch TSPlayer. Have a look at the DirectShow tab. Select good decoders. Drag and drop your transponder recording on the TSPlayer window. Double-click one of the entries in the Available Streams Treeview. This will start playback and enable the PiP tool button at the bottom right. It switches PiP on/off. Now there are two possibilities:

 

1) Select the service that you want to be played as PiP in the Available Streams Treeview (single click), or one of the subnodes, if you want to send a specific audio track to the PiP window. Then click the PiP button.

 

or

 

2) Right click the PiP button and select the service for PiP in the popup menu.

 

After that, the PiP Video Window should show up and... sorry, no PiP. On first usage the PiP module will only let the PiP Settings Window pop up, in order to encourage you to select a video renderer and decoders. Do so. Close the Settings Window. Right-click the PiP Video Window and again select the desired service in the popup menu. Now and in future it should work without encouragement.

 

There are the following possibilities:

 

- PiP Audio: Click the Main Video Window or the PiP Video Window with the middle mouse button, if you want to hear the main/PiP audio. Or use the popup menu for toggling. Use the mouse wheel for volume control.

 

- PiP Full Screen: Double-click the PiP Video Window for switching it to full screen mode and back. In full screen mode the PiP Video Window automatically grabs audio. If you own two monitors (I don't) you may also let one of them display the main video in full screen mode and the secondary monitor PiP in full screen mode (or vice versa).

 

- Resize & Move: Resize the PiP Video Window in the usual Windows way, if you want to. Or move it around by dragging it with the left mouse button.

 

- Swap PiP and main video: Sorry, not implemented yet. Maybe later...

 

 

Seeking with Cue Play

 

...which means seeking with visual feedback (if you know what I mean). Fully supported by TSPlayer Beta, provided DVBViewer Filter 3.5.2 is installed. Click the following buttons resp. press the following keys if you want to jump x seconds back/forward:

 

[<] [>] resp. [Ctrl+Left] [Ctrl+Right] 10 seconds back/forward.

 

Click the tool buttons with the right mouse button resp. additionally hold the shift key down for 1 second back/forward

 

[<<] [>>] resp. [Ctrl+PgUp] [Ctrl+PgDown] 1 minute back/forward

 

Click the tool buttons with the right mouse button resp. additionally hold the shift key down for 30 seconds back/forward

 

You may omit the [Ctrl] key if the position trackbar is selected in the TSPlayer Main Window, or if the Main or PiP Video Window is the active window. If you keep the mouse button resp. key pressed, the command will be auto-repeated after a short period and you will get cue play.

 

That's all for today. Looking forward to the beer

[Cian]

So far .... it's brilliant - exactly what I wanted The ability too choose the audio between either window is particularly useful for me.

 

One tiny issue and one observation (if that's OK - I don't want to seem ungrateful!). The observation is to make sure that the "Full Screen On Top" is de-selected, or the PiP window will vanish after a few seconds in full screen mode

 

The issue is that when you are in full screen mode, and you right-click on the insert picture to change channels/audio streams, the menu timeout is very short - I can't move my mouse that quickly!

 

But other than that, it is super - and in perfect time for the start of the Formula 1 season this weekend.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Cian

[Griga]

The observation is to make sure that the "Full Screen On Top" is de-selected, or the PiP window will vanish after a few seconds in full screen mode

Doesn't happen here under XP. What is your OS?

 

I had a similar problem in "Full Screen On Top" mode (the PiP window got hidden behind the Main Full Screen Window when I clicked on the latter), and I found a remedy, that works under XP, but unfortunately it causes

 

the menu timeout is very short - I can't move my mouse that quickly!

in "Full Screen On Top" off mode. I'm not responsible for this timeout, and I don't know what Windows is doing there and why.

 

Maybe it will take several test versions until all flaws are fixed... I'll look after it as soon as I find some time.

[MartinG]

Well, that already looks like something...

 

The DVBViewer GE PiP module (now attached to TSPlayer) is quite flexible. The PiP window can be moved to any desktop position, resized, switched to full screen, etc. Seeking works, even cue play, pause and all that stuff... the most difficult part was to sync the two video windows. At first the PiP window tended to be one second ahead, but I managed to reduce it to 100 ms or so. It has reached the state of being a proof of concept, I'd say. However, there are still some things on the to-do list. Switching audio between the windows and such. When it's done, testers will be needed...

 

Big thanks for this!

 

I have exactly the same need, F1 via BBC. I solved it last season using TSPlayer but can't recall exactly how (maybe several instances?)- but this is for sure a more easy way. It works fine from what I can see. Only "strangeness" is that VMR7 didn't work on secondary screen, had to switch to VMR9. And when reaching end of recording CPU usage goes bananas. But this is no problem - I'm happy as it is and I now can record F1-races and be sure to enjoy the best of BBC coverage when I have the time to watch it (in the rare event that I miss it live)

 

Cheers,

 

/Martin

Edited March 9, 2010 by MartinG

[Griga]

TSPlayer 2.2.1.8 has been replaced by TSPlayer 2.2.1.9 in the members area, beta section.

 

I'm quite sure this issue is fixed now

 

The issue is that when you are in full screen mode, and you right-click on the insert picture to change channels/audio streams, the menu timeout is very short

and maybe this one too:

 

The observation is to make sure that the "Full Screen On Top" is de-selected, or the PiP window will vanish after a few seconds in full screen mode

@Cian: I can't test it, since it doesn't happen here. It's up to you now...

 

And when reaching end of recording CPU usage goes bananas.

@MartinG: Not here. Does the TSPlayer or the PiP module (PreviewW.exe) let the CPU usage go tutti fruity? Or both? The process list in the task manager should show what's going on.

[Cian]

Menu timeout is fixed

 

PiP is still disappearing when Full Screen on top is selected, but this is not an issue as far as I can see. I have tried a few different MPEG2 decoders (ATI MPEG Video and PDVD7) , but I can't do a proper test until this evening as I am in work at the moment and have a deadline

 

Will post again later,

 

Cian.

[Griga]

PiP is still disappearing when Full Screen on top is selected,

Under XP? Vista? Windows 7?

[Cian]

The no PiP in Full screen issue is the same on the system at home. Both systems are XP, but I have attached the supporttool.zip for my home machine in case it might help. The work machine has a similar spec, but has an ATI 4650 graphics card.

 

The PiP audio does not switch on the home machine, but I am pretty sure that it is the limitation of my system - Since I use an HDMI audio out, I'm not sure that more than one application can access it at a time. But it does work perfectly in work where I am using the on-board SoundMax card. Having said that, I can only access the Audio Renderer in TS Player and not in the PiP Settings, so maybe that has something to do with it.

support.zip

Edited March 10, 2010 by Cian

[MartinG]

@MartinG: Not here. Does the TSPlayer or the PiP module (PreviewW.exe) let the CPU usage go tutti fruity? Or both? The process list in the task manager should show what's going on.

 

Both! They go to 50% each on a dual core. Happens with latest version as well. Also occured with a single stream ts-file but then only tsplayer went to 50% (had the same stream in pip-window).

 

No real problem as I said.

[Griga]

TSPlayer 2.2.1.9 has been replaced by TSPlayer 2.2.1.10 in the members area, beta section.

 

The no PiP in Full screen issue is the same on the system at home. Both systems are XP

Strange. I can't reproduce it here under XP, and that's bad, because it gives me no opportunity to catch the issue. Is there some coincidence that could help to pinpoint it? Something happening at the same time or behind the full screen? Something that changes the relationship between the two video windows... according to the MSDN specifications the secondary window must stay on top, so I just don't know.

 

Nevertheless I've changed a related part in the PiP module. It's just a blind guess... try.

 

@MartinG: Do you encounter the same issue? Make sure that Settings -> Full Screen on Top is ticked. Does the PiP Window stay on top in full screen mode?

 

The PiP audio does not switch on the home machine, but I am pretty sure that it is the limitation of my system - Since I use an HDMI audio out, I'm not sure that more than one application can access it at a time

The PiP module always uses the Default DirectSound Renderer, which means, the audio device selected in the Windows control panel.

 

Both! They go to 50% each on a dual core.

Same decoders used by both? TSPlayer doesn't stop when it reaches the end of the file, because it is supposed to handle growing files (= ongoing recordings). E.g. you can record the transponder in DVBViewer (playback switched off) and watch it timeshifted in TSPlayer.

 

Maybe some decoder goes mad because playback is still running, but no data arriving anymore. Try different ones in TSPlayer 2.2.1.9.

 

The obvious solution is to stop playback automatically when the end of a non-growing file is reached. This may be inappropriate when TSPlayer is used as conversion tool, dunno... nevertheless version 2.2.1.10 does it this way. Everything is allowed in a beta